Kent Ellingson

Bob Lawrence  0:32  
Welcome to jazz piano skills. I'm Dr. Bob Lawrence. It's time to discover, learn and play jazz piano. Today I welcome to jazz piano skills. Mr. Kent Ellingson, a professional jazz pianist, educator, and clinician. Kinte is an old friend. And when I say old friend, I mean, old friend. We first met 40 years ago, when we were both in the doctoral program at the University of North Texas. It was called North Texas State University back then. But Kent is a fabulous jazz pianist residing here in the Dallas area, without question considered one of the very best and always and I mean always in high demand as a pianist, educator and clinician. He has been a featured pianist that the salmons jazz Center and the Dallas jazz piano society yearly concert series and has performed in concert with Randy Brecker Clark Terry and Greg Jensen Phil woods and countless other jazz notables. Currently, he leads his own jazz group, which performs regularly at various clubs, festivals and concerts. Kansas also a tremendous solo pianist and can be heard playing nightly at many of the high end Dallas restaurants. Kent retired after 31 years as a full time music educator at Dallas as Booker T. Washington High School for the Performing and Visual Arts, but continues to teach apply jazz piano courses at Collin College and Dallas college ease Phil is also a pianist for both faculty jazz combos and participates yearly at the Collin College summer jazz camp as a faculty pianist and jazz instructor. Alright enough already. I'm excited and looking forward to spending some time with my my dear friend Ken Ellingson. Enjoy.

Bob Lawrence  2:37  
Kent Ellingson!

Kent Ellingson  2:40  
Bob Lawrence!

Bob Lawrence  2:42  
my old friend, Hey, man, it's been too long. It will listen, you want to know how long it's been? I mentioned this to you yesterday when we chatted briefly. 40 years ago. 1984 is when you and I met, I believe at the University of Nortec. North Texas State University 1984. Yeah, okay. I believe that. Yeah. Is that we didn't know each other at all until we both started the doctoral program. That's, that's right. Okay, so somewhere that mid 80s. Right. Yeah. Yeah. It may have been a year after that. but who's counting man?

Kent Ellingson  3:23  
Yeah, who's counting? But anyway, Bob, it's great to see you. It really is like, likewise. Great to see my friends.

Bob Lawrence  3:28  
So yeah, it's been a long time. Those North Texas days, man, I think about them often. That was a great time, man. Yeah, it really was. It really was. And it allowed us. You know, even though we were involved in the doctoral program, we had time to hone our craft. That's right, you know, while going to school there for sure. Yeah. And you know, I mentioned it to so many different folks, you know, I mentioned that we had I had Bert Ligon on jazz panel skills, another North Texas guy and I mentioned to him that I loved my days at North Texas I learned a lot in the classrooms, but honestly, I think I learned more in the hallways hanging out with guys like you and, and other musicians and players. It was just a fantastic hang, you know, being timed out.

Kent Ellingson  4:12  
Right. And that's the true value of going to school there. You know, I mean, the classes and the great instructors are one thing but but just the the constant, you know, relationships and the playing that you get in outside of the classroom

Bob Lawrence  4:29  
is really valuable. Yeah, now, right. It's, it's, it's amazing. And it continues to be like that every stinking year man. I talked to young lions that are up there learning and studying now and it's the same thing. It's, it's unbelievable. So, so yeah, we we met during our doctoral days at the University of North Texas and that was that was fabulous.

Kent Ellingson  4:53  
And ya know, Bob, I do have to tell everybody who was listening, that one of us finished the doctorate degree and the other one didn't. So congratulations to you, Bob. You're stuck it up. Yeah, let's do it enough. Yeah. Enough ABD.

Bob Lawrence  5:09  
Yeah, I get it, man. You, I get it, I get it, man. But if anyone deserves a doctorate my friend, it's you, I can guarantee you that

Kent Ellingson  5:17  
 You're very kind.

Bob Lawrence  5:18  
That's the That's the truth. So, so look man today, having you on jazz panel skills. I want to talk about a whole lot of stuff, man, it's gonna be really fast hour. But I want to start, I want to just kind of turn the microphone over to you because there's a lot you know, there's, you know, we shared a lot with each other during our days and our school days together. But I want you to kind of rewind the clock a little bit, kind of share with jazz panel skills listeners. Your life story, man. You know how you got into jazz? You're from the Minnesota area, if I remember correctly, is that right?

Kent Ellingson  5:53  
Yeah. Fargo, North Dakota originally cross the river from Minnesota? Yeah, yeah, Fargo that's it. Still a die hard Minnesota sports fan?

Bob Lawrence  6:02  
Maybe that's maybe that's why I was. That's why I was thinking Minnesota because you're a big twins fan. Yeah.

Kent Ellingson  6:07  
All right. Well, I still am. But I tell you why. Vikings and all that. I have lived a very hard life. Yeah, there's no one. Yeah, there's no way of getting around that man. You know, Bob, if I if I go back. For me, you know, I took piano lessons when I was a kid, and really didn't care for it at all. You know, it was all the note reading stuff.

Kent Ellingson  6:35  
My teachers never went beyond that. But I mean, you know, I'm not blaming anybody here. But it really wasn't until I got a chance to actually look at the other side of music playing. And that's being able to record symbols and being able to improvise and that sort of thing. So kind of most of my time, was spent. I actually played saxophone to in band throughout, from fifth grade through 12th grade. And

Kent Ellingson  7:04  
the my piano was kind of left behind and all this. And furthermore, I'd write I want to much prefer to go outside and play various sports with my friends who are out in the yard or whatever. Right, right. I had no thoughts about ever entertaining music as a career. But I will tell you that one of the things that that created an impression on me to this day is my band director in high school, suggested to go to a jazz camp. And it was that at the time, I don't think it's there anymore. But it was the peace gardens music camp at a location that where North Dakota and Canada Share, share the border, it's way up there at the north end of the state. And it just so happens that, you know, I didn't know anybody, because I was just a high school junior and real ignorant. But as it turns out, the faculty there included David Baker, Jamie aimersoft. Dan Hearle. Charlie, great on drums. Yeah, it was ridiculous. It's amazing. And so yeah, so I have a really ignorant teenager, going to hear them for the first time and I thought to myself, Oh, man, I love this. And they're incredible. And I'm blown away. Now at that same week, Jamey Aebersold

Kent Ellingson  8:22  
had a records listening class. And it turns out that one of the albums that he decided to play a song from was from Herbie Hancock. Let's see, what is that album? The one the one with chameleon on it?

Bob Lawrence  8:41  
Oh, man,

Kent Ellingson  8:43  
but But anyway, he played a couple of cuts off of that album. And that did it for me, man. As soon as I went home at the end of the week, I bought that album. Well, that album did it for a whole lot of people. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, that completely changed my life. I remember listening to it before I would go to sleep every single night for about the last year. That there for the next year. Yeah, it was incredible. And so that really influenced me to say to myself, You know what, there is a way of playing that goes beyond the way that I have learned, right. And so I was a non undeclared major in college, I went to University of Minnesota Moorhead. But I did sign up for band that first semester and during that semester, a friend of mine gave me a call and said, Yeah, yeah, well, you know, I hear you're still playing saxophone. So I've got this little combo, and would you like to join us? And I thought to myself, Okay, well, I'll give it a try. And that was another big influence on my life because then for the first time, I actually got real hands on playing in a jazz combo situation. And no, Charlie Parker, I was not.

Kent Ellingson  9:51  
But you know, I ended up basically, you know, I played blues. I liked to play little blues. Thanks. So basically, I every single tutor we played, I would just rely on my little glue you make you make that fit no matter what man. Well, Bobby, and then during that time at one point when I was in that combo, the person who was playing piano and he had a Fender Rhodes piano, and he decided that he wanted to go back to his original love drums. And at that time, then I said, Well, you know what, I'm gonna go ahead and buy this. I can't remember he sold it to me for a decent price. So I bought the Fender Rhodes piano, I really had no idea how to play it, but I was more interested. Thinking of that Herbie Hancock sound more interested in playing, you know, in playing keyboard stuff than I was saxophone stuff. And so from that point on, I concentrated more on playing piano type things. I played in a couple of rock bands in Fargo, North Dakota, you know, there's not a whole lot of jazz up there to tap into, although I know I do know that in recent times. They've really stepped it up in terms of a wide variety of offerings. And there's a lot going on in that city. I gotta give it credit. North Dakota. That's awesome, man. little shout out to Fargo.

Bob Lawrence  11:15  
You know what's fascinating. Okay, you're in. You're in college at this time, man. You're, you're at college playing saxophone, and, and, and you're making the switch over to piano in your college days. 

Kent Ellingson  11:28  
Yes. You know, it's been about keep in mind, I took piano lessons from age seven through age 12. Okay, so I you know, I had these exercises where I was reading notes. Yeah, little Bach pieces and that sort of thing. Easy and easy Mozart and that sort of thing. And, and I, you know, I'm sitting there waking up every morning going? Well, I don't, my mom made me practice a half hour a day. So the first thing in the morning, that's what she would pretty much have me do is practice at least a half hour day before I could join my friends playing basketball, baseball, you know, you name it. Right. But But yeah, so I stopped. And for the next six years of my life, I had nothing to do with piano. And then at the end of my senior year, I noticed that I that I was noodling on my parents piano more and more and more I was kind of missing those little old songs. So I got out the old piano books.

Kent Ellingson  12:22  
And so that, that that along with Herbie Hancock revive my interest in wanting to really learn keyboard. Yeah. You know, it's fascinating.

Bob Lawrence  12:30  
I think we we may have talked about this man when we were back in school together, because what's what's fascinating is, I was a drummer all the way through high school. Really? Yeah, I played drums. Man. I'm sure you told me that at one time, but I Yeah. And then I switched the piano, in college as well. And what's fascinating about that is I too, I had a teacher named Mrs. Failed hot. I'll never forget it, man. I had my You and I must have the same mom because my mom, I had a few little piano lessons for Mrs. Feldhahn in the neighborhood, which was really embarrassing, because next door to Mrs. Feldhahn was our high school coach, our high school football, baseball basketball coach where he lived. And he would always go like, so I'd be at baseball practice. And he go did you have your piano lesson today? Yeah. That that kind of thing. Right. Yeah. And so it didn't last very long. You know, piano when I was young, and I focused on drunk I wanted to be Louie Bellson buddy. Rich, you know. But but okay.

Kent Ellingson  13:33  
But even back in those days, you were aware of the jazz medium?

Bob Lawrence  13:37  
Oh, right. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. Yeah. Okay. But I but I didn't, but I was I was full on drums. And then like you, you know, I started dabbling back into the piano again, and I would play drums behind Jack, great jazz piano players. And I would think, dang, man, I'm on my I'm on the I'm, I'm on the wrong instrument, man. Yeah. You know. So it's funny our past in many ways. Very similar. Yeah. All right. Right.

Kent Ellingson  14:06  
I would agree with that. Yeah. Now,

Bob Lawrence  14:10  
by that when you were in college, where did you go to school and undergraduate? Undergraduate was in Iowa, St. Ambrose University's a little small liberal arts school. Okay. Did they have a jazz band? And were you involved in the jazz band was

Bob Lawrence  14:25  
horrible, horrible. And I and I did play. I started. I played drums in that jazz band, actually. Oh, so you didn't play piano? No, I played drums in that jazz band. Yeah. And I played piano on the side. And I had, I got a little group put together a little jazz trio and played in some hotels and that kind of thing in lounges in that and that's how I got started really going with the jazz piano.

Kent Ellingson  14:47  
Okay, well, I gotta tell you, so I'm playing these rock bands. When I'm in college and I, I'm now at the point where I'm actually playing triads, even an occasional seven chord. Pretty pretty, you know, with with competence.

Kent Ellingson  15:00  
Okay, so so I'm going to school University of Minnesota Moorhead. And my third year, somebody knew that I was dabbling in keyboard. They heard me in the practice room, and they said, Hey, our stage band, do you have a player? And I said, Oh, really? Well, the director at that time at that time was Dr. Al Noyce, also another major influence on my life. And he got wind of the fact that somebody had talked to me about doing this. And so he talked to me, he goes, Hey, you know, why don't you come in, we need a piano player. I won't say a word to you for let's play the first week or two, you just get yourself comfortable. We'll see what happens. Okay. So there I am. And I remember the first day

Kent Ellingson  15:45  
I think they played something like one o'clock jump in the key of D flat. Now, I could barely at that time play G flat triad lent a load all these seventh chords and dominance to five ones and that sort of thing. Yeah. So So I know that he thought that I really stuck. But but to his credit, he was willing to go with me for about, you know, three weeks to a month and then and then he I remember, he gave me a Count Basie record to listen to. And then he said, Now listen to this real carefully to try to understand the concept of swing. And so you know, I put it on and I listened to it. And I will tell you that by the end of the month, he actually came up to me and he goes, You know, I think you're you're doing a really good job. You're lifting and you're really improving. And I think I think you've got to place with us. So for the next two years, then I played in that in that jazz band. The Morehead State at that time it was Morehead State University, but the University of Minnesota Moorhead jazz band. And actually, the jazz band at that time had had really quite a reputation. A good reputation. Oh, wow.

Kent Ellingson  16:59  
That will clear jazz festival I think they participated in before I was in it and did really well. Yeah. So they had a name to go to go with themselves. And that solidified my wanting to continue my pursuit of jazz piano. Wow, that's, that's, that's fascinating, man. You know, when you started that first month, you know, I know he had to be thinking, well, you know, he's got a long way to go. But he's the best we got. So we got to stick. We got to ride this horse all the way to the end.

Kent Ellingson  17:30  
I remember a couple kids in the bed telling me afterwards, you know that when I could do it, that there would be times where I'd play and he would just kind of look at everybody. Yeah, but no, man, he stuck with me. And I will I will forever he's no longer with us. But he stuck with me and I will forever be grateful. Oh, that's fantastic. Well, Ken, I mean, this is such a great testimony to you. Because this is I've always felt this about you.

Bob Lawrence  17:59  
You learn so fast. So quickly. You're you know, you like You're like a sponge man. You soak everything in. And so I have it doesn't surprise me at all. To hear your background hear your story that you know, here you are in college in college. getting your hands on a keyboard and and diving. Yeah, I mean, but and learning as you go right and figuring it out and listening to albums and then getting back into the practice room and learning these chords. And, man, what a great testimony. Do you so, so Okay, so at some point, then you said to yourself,

Kent Ellingson  18:40  
I'm going to go to North Texas State University. Yeah.

Kent Ellingson  18:47  
By the way, true story.

Kent Ellingson  18:51  
So one of the best saxophone players in Fargo, North Dakota. I'm playing a gig and Andy and I've graduated now from University of Minnesota Moorhead, and I'm talking to him, I'm breaking he goes. So what are you going to do next year? He goes well, I said, Well, my plans are to go to University of North Texas.

Kent Ellingson  19:11  
North Texas State, he just looked at me kind of smiling. He goes, Well, you know, there's a lot of good players down. That's all I got from that, like, oh God, man, you know, best of luck and you know, hope to do as good as possible. A lot of good players.

Bob Lawrence  19:29  
So anyway, hey, by the way, one other person that I have to acknowledge is Dr. David Ferrara, who was the first person I took jazz piano lessons with and this was up in Fargo Moorhead. He was a teacher at University of Minnesota Moorhead. And he basically got me going on the basic like showing me things like you know, two five ones. And voice showed me the proper way to play the blues and using word alterations. And so yeah, I gotta give a shout out to him because to hear here too, if I had had those few lessons that I did with them? I probably would never have gone. Yeah. Well, you know, it's funny, right? Because thank goodness we were in I mean this in the most sincere and complimentary way.

Bob Lawrence  20:12  
Thank goodness you and I were ignorant to just how good the players were at North Texas that you know, yeah, that we packed up our that we packed up our bags and headed south thread. It's unbelievable.

Kent Ellingson  20:25  
Yeah, right. And so I don't know if you had the same experience, probably my first year at University of North Texas. It was a tough one, man. Oh, yeah, it was really tough one because I wasn't getting any calls for any gigs. You know, and, and I, the first semester that I went there with was, I believe the fall of 1981. So I auditioned. And I auditioned for Dan Hearle

Kent Ellingson  20:50  
Another a big shout out to Dan Man, what a great guy and God bless his soul. Rest in peace, but I learned so much from Dan. Yes, but But yeah, I mean, so you know, as it turns out, Bob, I did not make a band. Okay. But but at the last minute, he found a spot for me to play in a combo. Do you remember John Moss lab? Oh, yeah, it was John Moss lads combo. They needed a piano player. Wow. Just like my first college needed a piano player. So, so I I signed up quickly. I mean, I'd beat the deadline, but just few hours. So I signed up quickly. So I was in combo class played with John Moss bugs combo. And I learned a lot that year from playing with him. Yeah. And I remember I auditioned for and made the Bruce Hall big there. So there you go. So I was a combo didn't make a big band at University of North Texas. But I got to play in the Bruce Hall big.

Bob Lawrence  21:52  
Congratulations, man.

Kent Ellingson  21:55  
My life was complete.

Kent Ellingson  21:57  
But Bob Yeah, just like you, you, man. I was we were both so ignorant. Oh, my gosh, but But you know, in retrospect, I'm glad I stuck it out. Yeah, absolutely. Because you're a monster player now, dude. Well, that's very kind of you, Bob. Yeah, no, you're you're a fabulous jazz pianist. I love your playing well, and I've gotten because of what I've been able to accumulate over the years, I've also gotten a lot of teaching and clinical opportunities, and have been grateful for that, too. As a matter of fact, Bob, next week, I am going to be involved in the Collin College Jazz camp formed yesterday that there are a total of 12 piano players signed up. Well, I've been involved with that camp for many years, and I've never had more than I think eight so I don't know how we're gonna get I'm gonna get through this. But I was thinking to myself since we're talking Hey, man, would you like it to be able to assist in the in this cap?

Kent Ellingson  22:53  
On the side? Hey, dude, help me out?

Bob Lawrence  22:55  
Yeah, hey, I'd love to man send me the details. there'd be nothing more I would enjoy then hanging out with you and talking jazz and helping these young young kids and having some pizza. That that'd be great. Hey, that's a great week

Kent Ellingson  23:09  
 It really is. And there's a good they always bring a guest artist and so faculty does a fair amount of playing on this camp too.

Bob Lawrence  23:16  
Oh, fantastic. You know, real quick Dan Hearle story. In this is again to just magnify just how how ignorant the least I was when I got the North Texas I I went in for my audition with Dan. Remember those auditions, man, you stand in the hallway and people were lining up and you gotta go in his office. And so I go in and I play for him. And this is hilarious. I still remember this. Like it was yesterday.

Bob Lawrence  23:47  
I played he goes, what are you gonna play? I said, I'd like to play. Duke Ellington's. I got it. Bad netting. Good. And he goes, Oh, great. Great, Tim. So I, I play, I get done playing the tune. He says to me. What was that?

Bob Lawrence  24:09  
He was what was that? I said, and I thought and I was confused because I told him what I was going to play before.

Bob Lawrence  24:16  
Before I played. He goes, what was that? And I said, Well, that was Duke Ellington's. I got it bad. And he goes, I know what the tune was. He goes, what were you playing?

Bob Lawrence  24:28  
I said, What was I plan? I said,

Bob Lawrence  24:32  
I don't have much. I don't know how to answer that. He goes.

Bob Lawrence  24:36  
He goes, Did you think that was jazz?

Kent Ellingson  24:39  
Ouch. Yeah, ouch, right. Yeah. And I said, Yes, he goes, No, he goes, he goes he goes man, listen, man, because jazz is already been invented

Kent Ellingson  24:55  
Yeah, Bob.

Bob Lawrence  24:58  
He did. He said jazz has already been in

Bob Lawrence  25:00  
Benton man, he goes, you're trying way too hard.

Bob Lawrence  25:03  
Right? So anyway, I'll never forget that. And I shared that story with him years later, right?

Bob Lawrence  25:10  
And it was so funny. I shared that story with him years later, he got all Sandy was I'm sorry, man. He goes, I'm sorry. I did because he got so soft. You know, he got you got to be this grandpa type guy, you know, at the end of toward the end of his life. You're real sweet, you know? Yeah. And he taught on faculty here at the Dallas School of Music for eight years. So I got to hang with him every day, you know, and, and, but he was meant he would apologize. Oh, I'm so sorry. He was I really say that to you. I said, you really say that to you know,

Kent Ellingson  25:37  
okay, Bob, I got my own first audition with that early story. Of course, you know, I've been preparing this piece and you know, and now waiting in line just like you did, and finally, it was my turn now all nervous. And he's, he came to me, he, you know, he goes, Well, you know, we did our introductions to each other. He's those Okay, so you got to tune you can play for me. And I go, Yeah, he goes, what will it be? And I said, Misty.

Kent Ellingson  26:07  
I played with all the imperfections I could give him. And when he was done, he just sort of stroked his beard and said, Yeah, you know, that's an often played tune. Basically what he said.

Kent Ellingson  26:23  
Now, I do remember he did like, he did like my blues playing. Oh, God on that audition. Cuz in fact, I think he was surprised I could play the blues as long as I could, considering I did a hatchet job.

Bob Lawrence  26:39  
See, man, those are memories. I mean, yeah, they're fantastic. They weren't great memories at the moment, but they're great memories now, man. Yeah. Yeah. Another thing, Bob that I had problems with, in those first couple of semesters was reading. Oh, yeah, we all know reading we all did, because I think that's what hurt me the most in my audition was my inability to sight read effectively. Yeah, the example that he gave, which, you know, in retrospect, wasn't hard at all. Right? Right. But you know what, it's amazing, right? Because if you take the lab bands up there at North Texas from, you know, one o'clock down, you take that

Bob Lawrence  27:14  
you got guys playing in the nine o'clock, you got guys playing in reading bands, and nine o'clock, eight o'clock lab bands that are monster players. They just, they just can't read? Yeah, right. They're just monster players, you know? Yeah. But you know, you and I both know the value of being able to read like on a game, oh, my gosh, session, you name it. I mean, you know, that has to be part of the of the audition component. It has to it has to be, you know, and I tell students that I work with today that come in, and they're already playing at a high level, but they can't read and I say to him, I go look, man, you have to become at least a functional reader. You have to be a functional reader. I mean, you don't need to be you don't have to read like you're reading backfields for fun, but you got to become you have to become functional man. Yeah. And I tell my students that, you know, if you can't sight read effectively, I tell them, You know what, you can be the best player in the world, but you're never going to get past a certain level of performance. Right. You know, you'll never do shows. You'll never do studio work. Right? That's right. You know, yeah, you can gig you can gig as long as long as no reading isn't really a requirement. Because you know, most piano players can play chord symbols. Yeah, right. They can get through a gig. But if there's a heavy reading component involved that separates the cans from the CANS that Well, that's exactly right.

Bob Lawrence  28:34  
So it can't Did you have any siblings that? Did your mom and dad play music? Did you have siblings? I play music, but what was your household? Like? Okay, yeah, my mom played piano growing up. And she also was involved in church music. Okay.

Kent Ellingson  28:52  
Being in the choir and assisting on piano, I don't think I ever remember hearing her play Oregon, but she could play piano. And my dad had nothing to do with music. He could sing I mean, down in the valley, and that's about it.

Kent Ellingson  29:06  
All my I have, I had two brothers, one sister, and they all took piano lessons. My sister did actually go beyond that. And she played piano and some shows at the high school and the college level. And so she was she was pretty good. And then later on, she was involved in church music as well. But nobody came close to taking it to the level that I decided to write involvement and commitment and career choice. Yeah. Well, you know, it's interesting, right? The fact that you went to North Texas when you did it, and you're right, it's really it ends up being a sink or swim scenario for so many people when you get there. And if you can end up if you can end up swimming instead of sinking. You grow a tremendous amount. And that's that that has to be

Unknown Speaker  30:00  
He, I would have to think because it was for me, the tipping point for me as a musician. That was what got me over the hurdle. And I started actually developing and evolving into a professional musician. Yeah, yeah. Well, sink or swim. You say, I think that my first two semesters at University of North Texas looking back I can safely say I think

Unknown Speaker  30:22  
but but I guess to my, to my credit,

Unknown Speaker  30:27  
I hung in there. You did. Fantastic. But I always thought that well, there's gonna be a point where I can get up and I can take a deep breath and still be alive.

Unknown Speaker  30:37  
You Yeah. Plus, you know, we had great restaurants like the flying tomato to hang out in and oh, yeah, the Texas, Texas pickup remember the old Texas pickup the man that was awesome. Man did Yeah, I think but I think you and I actually shared quite a few lunches. We went after one of the music ed classes at the graduate level. Yeah, time to go there. Or I don't know. Weird, fast food quite a bit.

Unknown Speaker  31:03  
That was fun. So okay, man. So all right. So then you've touched upon it already. And I want you to talk about this a little bit. You're an educator. I mean, your your teacher, man, you taught for many years at Booker T. Washington High School for the Performing Arts here in the Dallas area, which is fantastic. So talk a little bit about your teaching background and what that has done for you in your development as a professional jazz pianist. Okay, so I'm,

Unknown Speaker  31:33  
in terms of really serious involvement. It all started when I got a part time position that Booker T Washington High School for the Performing and Visual Arts, another factor that completely changed my life, because as you know, I eventually got the full time position. And then, as a result, the doctorate went by the wayside. That's right. But yeah, I started there in 1984, September of 1984, and was involved in part time, for oh, I don't know about the next six years. And then I quit, to resume studies at University of North Texas. And then after I was done with coursework at the University of North Texas, I got a call from the Coordinator, Dr. Douglas Cornell, who asked if I would be interested in applying for a full time position because one of their piano teachers was moving. Her husband got a job transfer. So I said, Sure, why not? I mean, you know, I had graduated. I wasn't making a whole lot of money, doing a little game here and there. But that's about it. So I went down there. And the interview process wasn't very long, and they basically offered me the job on the spot. Wow, fantastic. Now this is I believe, this is 1992, January of 1992. And, and lo and behold, the Coordinator, Dr. Cornell, among the things that he got me assigned was a class, jazz piano class. Now, tell me how many high schools in the country have an actual class devoted to jazz piano zero? You know, that was really lucky for me, I think there were only like six or seven kids that signed up. But that got my foot in the door really solidly down there. And I never gave up that class. Pretty much for the next 25 or so years that I thought their full time camp. Wow. That's fantastic. But that teaching experience was wonderful. And then

Unknown Speaker  33:30  
in all this, too, I've involved myself in a couple of community colleges. Of course, I mentioned the one Collin College in Plano. And then

Unknown Speaker  33:40  
I'm also involved in teaching jazz piano at Eastfield College in Mesquite. Right, but I have been involved with teaching,

Unknown Speaker  33:48  
you know, various subjects in the music field. Well, ever since 1984. I mean, I still teach part time. So Dan, yeah. Is Chris Berg still there at Collin.

Unknown Speaker  34:00  
It's at the school. No, he's, he's not there anymore. He hasn't been there for quite a few years. Okay. All right. Wonderful. I didn't I didn't know. Who's the director there now. You know, I think Chris is the current director of the Dallas youth Jazz Orchestra. Oh, okay. Yeah. Okay. And well.

Unknown Speaker  34:23  
They're a gentleman, Dr. Highlander was there through the end of last year, and I think they're still in the process of finding a new full time. Head of Jazz Studies at Collin College. Oh, wow. Okay, very cool. Hey, man, why don't you apply for that?

Unknown Speaker  34:42  
gentleman by the name of Pete we see by the way is kind of what do you call that temporary, temporary head, find guitarist and he is also the, the head of the jazz camp that I will be involved in. Okay, great. Great. No, Bob. Hey, man, you know, I'm 27 years old. I'm putting my time

Unknown Speaker  35:00  
Over the education. I think part time is enough for me. Very good. So okay, so listen, with all your experience in teaching jazz piano, to high school kids. Right? Aspiring pretty much high school and college and college. Right?

Unknown Speaker  35:21  
Let's, let's talk about that. Let's talk about that process a little bit. Because jazz panels, skilled listeners, they're all students of, of this fabulous art form, and trying to figure it out. And, you know, discover, discover, you know, the essential jazz piano skills to study and to play. So let's talk about the beginning jazz pianist for a second.

Unknown Speaker  35:46  
Let's say you have somebody coming to you now and think back, you know,

Unknown Speaker  35:53  
a young kid Ellingson is coming to you now. Right? Oh, no.

Unknown Speaker  36:00  
I used to tell my students that Booker T. They know what if, if I, as a junior in high school, were in this class, I would hate that kid right now.

Unknown Speaker  36:13  
Okay, now you got to teach that kid. So. So what? What, what are some of the things with a beginning jazz pianist? What is some of that? What's What are some of the skills that you immediately have them begin studying and begin practicing? Okay, well, the very first thing is that I want to make sure that they have an understanding of seventh chords, correct that they know how to play a seventh chord, of course, you know, a person who doesn't have jazz experience, if I say, Okay, can you play for me an F seven, they're gonna go like this.

Unknown Speaker  36:46  
When

Unknown Speaker  36:48  
you know, traditional music theory, word position seven chord, yeah. So right off the bat. I tried to get them to understand that the jazz voicing goes beyond a root position seventh chord that you have to you know, you oftentimes include the nine you have, there are ways that you have to voice the chord in two hands. And of course, I don't know Bob, if you learned it this way, but I think this is the way DAN HURLEY taught the the old a&b One handed voicings, right, so you know, the A form, of course, says that the third of the chord is in the bottom. So if C seven would be?

Unknown Speaker  37:29  
I don't know. Yeah, I guess you can see that. Yeah, B three, nine, correct. And then you can also later on in the five, if you want to create a four note voicing, the B form is with the seventh on the bottom.

Unknown Speaker  37:43  
735. And if you want to add the fourth note, you had the nine right there. Correct. So it takes them a little while to understand that like a C seven can have an implied ninth and nobody's gonna worry about it, right, nobody's gonna worry about the label. So I really try very hard right off the bat to get these kids to understand that, you know, when you're playing a voicing you, you this is the way you should consider it as a jazz player, right, as compared to as a traditional pianist, or traditional theory person. And again, I'm going as fast as I can on the blues, right? 12, basic 12 bar blues, no more than three chords, right? Right, blues, and C. So I actually have a worksheet I made. And it's sort of based on what I learned from Dan, my first semester at University of North Texas, where I've got the chord, and it's going to be in an A or B form voicing and then I've got a walking baseline. So I'll just give a for measure example. So it's gonna go

Unknown Speaker  38:51  
etc. Okay, I think you probably remember that sheet that Dan has that oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, then of course, we have to talk once the kids get comfortable with that, we have to talk about soloing options. So I mean, right off the blue scale, and of course, see blues.

Unknown Speaker  39:10  
Okay, I'll say, you know, what, if you don't feel comfortable playing more than, let's say, three notes out of those six, I'm fine with that. Just try to make it make some sense. And also, don't forget what the swing feel is all about. Right? When they become comfortable with that, then what I'll do is I'll add those notes that end up you know, also equivalent, making equivalence to the blue scale sixth degree. We're in the C blues, you're adding the nine or the to, let's say the two, you're adding the major third, and you're adding the major six.

Unknown Speaker  39:47  
And then I typically tell him I go if you don't think that this isn't part of the blues makeup, listen to any Oscar Peterson blues, because he will incorporate that nozzle. That's exactly right.

Unknown Speaker  40:00  
Yeah, it's like a major blues sound. That's right. That's right. In fact, that's how I'll start the kids off. Then when I feel they're ready to do it, we will talk about the 251 progression. Yeah. Okay. You know, you know what I mean? Yeah, bebop isn't bebop era as long gone. But a piano player has to know how to effectively play to five ones basically, in any kind of music. That's exactly right. Well, you know that circle motion, right? I always tell students look, chord changes move three ways. Circle movement, diatonic movement, chromatic movement. That's it. That's all we got. Right? And circle movement being 90 plus percent of the time that you know, if you take any standard, and you take a yellow highlighter, and you go, I'm gonna go I'm gonna go through this Fakebook, and I'm going to highlight all the circle movement on every every tune, and you just took a yellow highlighter and everywhere as circle movement occurred, you highlighted it. To your amazement, at the end, you'd look at your sheet and it would be primarily yellow lines going across the entire lead sheet. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, when I teach the kids to buy ones, of course, we have to know both the A and the B form. Right, right. So I will teach them originally, I will have them try to play like I learned from Dan, really try to play them down in whole steps. So it goes like in the key of C.

Unknown Speaker  41:21  
Then you lower the third and the seventh, C becomes a minor two.

Unknown Speaker  41:28  
down that, that that whole step. Descending progression. Yeah. Then I will have them work half steps. Yeah. Okay.

Unknown Speaker  41:41  
Nice.

Unknown Speaker  41:43  
Etc. Yeah. And then, and then if I feel like, they need more work in that, and I should, you know, I should just be more of a stickler on this. But here's where like circle of fifth progression comes into play. So you do a 251 and C two pipe one and F 251 and B flat, 251. And D flat to get that circle of fifths cones, right? Correct. Correct. But, you know, it's like,

Unknown Speaker  42:08  
you know, the modern jazz pieces. Don't really employ this concept so much. But it's still important to touch it. It's basic to being a jazz piano player that you have to have total mastery of the 251 concept. No doubt about it. Yeah, no doubt about it. You know, I I learned.

Unknown Speaker  42:27  
I don't I don't you remember the old John Mohegan books? Oh, yeah, I've got them all. Yeah. Yeah, John Mohegan. He, he's got that chart in there. I think it's jazz pianists book too, or I can't remember which one. And it's got, in fact, I might have it here. Hang on a second here. This is where, you know, when you talk about things that have a profound impact on your life. Yeah, I do have it. Check it out, man. Check this out.

Unknown Speaker  42:56  
Remember this?

Unknown Speaker  42:59  
The jazz pianist by John Mohegan book? Yeah, what volume is that? That's book two. Okay. Book Two. Okay. Yeah. And in this in this book, right, there's a page that changed my life. Page. 22. Look what it says.

Unknown Speaker  43:17  
The 60 jazz chords? Oh, yeah. Great, right. And he's got major dominant minor, half diminished, diminished for all, all families, right? All 12 offered all 12 notes.

Unknown Speaker  43:30  
And so I always tell students that Look, man, that's like musical gold right there on that piece of paper, that one piece of paper that you have to be able to play those 60 sounds right, though. I mean, those five sounds major dominant minor, half diminished and diminished, right for each for each note 60 chords. Yeah. And you know, it's interesting, because I get I get students started on that. And then improv, right? You jump to the blues, which I liked. That's a great approach. I do that too. But I even backup from that. And I'll say, here's a C major seven, C, E, G, B.

Unknown Speaker  44:09  
Let's improvise. And you can use the notes, C, E, G, B.

Unknown Speaker  44:16  
It's a great way to get them to relating the court to soloing options. Yeah, because, yeah, right. Because you know what, I always I always tried to stress and I think you would agree, right? I always tell I tell students all the time. Look, jazz is the study of shapes and sounds. So every sound and in music, if we're talking about a major sound, that major sound can be played harmonically. And that major sound can be played melodically. Alright, so once sound played harmonically played melodically so it's like a solid liquid relationship. It's like an ice Q water relationship, right? And so when you play a C major seven in your left hand and you improvise melodically using the

Unknown Speaker  45:00  
notes C, G, C, E, G, B, you have the harmonic and melodic relationship of this sound. Right? Exactly. Right, exactly. Now, Bob, interesting that you would point out those, those different types of seventh chords that you have to learn in every key right, right from them hitting book.

Unknown Speaker  45:20  
And so

Unknown Speaker  45:23  
I have related that whole thing to what I have learned from the Frank Mantooth book. Oh, Frank, man. Yeah, voicing the voicing of voicings book. Yeah, yeah. So So, because, well, let me backtrack here for just a second. Okay. So when we're talking to five ones, and so what I'll do is I'll try to find pieces that have a lot of two five ones in them for the kids. And then we'll talk about soloing. And I always tell them, the easiest way to solo over a 251 is to simply use notes on the major scale of the one chord right for all three courts, right? Okay, now we're getting into alterations. That's a different that,

Unknown Speaker  45:59  
you know, that's a more advanced concept, right? But

Unknown Speaker  46:03  
so I'll do that with the kids. And then we will play several pieces that have the kids playing the melody and then chords and left hand but then at some point, I have to introduce them to voicings two handed voicings for piano. And this is where I found the value of the Frank Mantooth book because he spells that out very, very effectively and it's easy to learn. He talks about, you know, the kind of voicings that we learned in Dan Hurley's masterclass, right, the the minor 40 type voice so yeah, minor. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker  46:35  
Yeah, those I believe Frank Mantooth refers to those as miracle voicings because they applied to different quality concepts. That's right. That's right. And then he also talks about generic voicings, and this is where he seriously gets into all of the types of sevens quartz, right? So I actually ended up writing out a sheet that basically summarize those two types of voicings. And really, in essence, I think I covered maybe 80% of that book from that one sheet that I typed out that it's got both the lyrical voicings and the generic form. Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, that that book. You know, that book Can I think, I think, personally, I think that's the best voicing book that's been released on the market, quite honestly. I agree. I agree. I'm gonna agree with you right there. Yeah. Also, we can't we can't skip the fact that DAN HURLEY has also come out with incredible books, not just only jazz piano, but just jazz theory and jazz concepts in general. Well, Mantooth is a Harley guy. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Mantooth is a North Texas guy, you know, he was in North Texas guy. And, and, yeah, so it's, it's amazing the influence of Dan and all the educators, you know, all these books and educators,

Unknown Speaker  47:51  
especially on the jazz piano side that have been heavily influenced by Dan over the, over the over the decades. Yeah, so those of you listening out there, there are going to be two books that I highly recommend for you to get one from each of these guys. Dan early. Well, he's got all of his improv books, and they're great to get. I really truly like the jazz language, which explains Jazz Jazz Theory better than any other book I think I have ever Oh, I just looked at. I just talked about that on the podcast a couple of weeks ago that if I had to pick one book, if I had to pick one jazz theory book, you're going to drop me on a deserted island.

Unknown Speaker  48:31  
I take I take Dan Hurley's jazz language, just classic. Yeah. And then on the Frank matches side Now correct me if I'm wrong, Bob, isn't it called voicings for jazz piano? Or something very similar to that? Yes, Frank Mantooth voicings for jazz piano or voicings for keyboard? Yeah, if you just do its search for voicings Frank Mantooth. Yeah, yeah, everybody get those two books. If you want to succeed in jazz piano, you can't go wrong. Guess what? That's exactly 100% Correct. That's right. So, okay, so you get them going on the blues which is fantastic. You know, 251 progressions which fantastic.

Unknown Speaker  49:11  
What other skills? What about scales and arpeggios? How do you approach that with students the practicing of scales and arpeggios?

Unknown Speaker  49:19  
Well,

Unknown Speaker  49:23  
of course, the scales are very complicated, because you have this concept called a chord scale relationship, right? And another DAN HURLEY book to get scales for Jazz Improvisation. So then you have to discuss with kids you know, the modes and what mode fits into a given chord symbol. And you have to talk about other scales that are used in jazz the diminished scale, the augmented scale, right. The scale that I always refer to as the

Unknown Speaker  49:55  
Super locrian scale, which has its place in

Unknown Speaker  50:00  
You know, from altered seventh chords to various chord symbols that come stem from the melodic minor scale. Right. And so, um, yeah, I mean, it is very important for students to have regular scale study. But again here too, for reference, I would get Dan Hurley's scale scales for Jazz Improvisation book. Yeah, it's great. And when, Bob Well, I will tell you that when I was at school before University of North Texas, the one of the things that I did do was I practice my skills. A whole bunch. Yeah, like a whole bunch, right? To where that I would probably devote the better part of an hour of practice on a day to nothing but scale practice. Yeah, right. Right. And I think it made a big difference in my life going into the second year of that jazz band. Yeah, just just from a technique perspective, right. Just yeah, just right. And, you know, CT scan relationships aside just for technical agility, hand mobility moving around on the keyboard, right. Yeah, right.

Unknown Speaker  51:01  
Yeah, and, you know, teaching kids or having kids work with arpeggios. I know that's really important. For me, as a jazz performer I am I am more concerned about them getting the concept of voicings, whether they hold them and then of course, the Arpeggios are effective practice for use when you're like, for example, when you're soloing over bebop when you're trying to solo bebop lines, you know, so much. So many of the Bebop licks that we've come to love involve arpeggios, like a chromatic half step leading into a chord tone going right up the arpeggio, through the nine and even the 11 and 13. Yeah, you went to important you want to hear something clever man. When I had Bert Ligon on jazz piano skills. He says to me, he goes, Bob, I don't practice scales anymore. I said, you don't practice scales anymore? He goes, No. He says I practice arpeggios with passing tones. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That's right.

Unknown Speaker  52:05  
Speaking of two, five ones, yes. Okay, the Jamey Aebersold volume three. Another book and I don't know they probably they probably have a you probably can get three now. Who knows? Yeah. Yeah. Is that a 251? Collection? 251 progression. Yeah, included in that in that booklet is is also a smaller booklet of nothing but jazz piano voicings for 251 and also licks 251 that started on the third, the start on the fifth that start on you know, the major seventh, right, right. And if you look deeply into those licks, you will see to the extent that arpeggios, are you that's all I can say about that. Right? Right.

Unknown Speaker  52:47  
See what you think about this, I when I teach scales now Can't I teach scales in relationship to sound. So what I mean by that is like, I will have a C major scale that, that you play from the root to the seventh root to the sun, so I'm telling students all the time that your entry point your destination point must be different. You cannot play octave to octave because your ears are DIAC deactivated because all your ears are hearing is Doh, Doh, Doh, Doh, Doh, Doh, Doh, Doh, DOH. Doh. you if you if you practice root, the seven major seven major seven sound root the seven dominant seven scale root the seven minor scale, Dorian root, the seven half diminished root the seven diminished, right? That now your ears become actively engaged. So I have, I have them practice scales, root the seven, three to nine, five to 11, seven to 13. So they're hearing these sound fragments, the fragments within the sound, right.

Unknown Speaker  53:55  
The other thing too about modes of chords go relationships that that I like to teach. I teach play the C dominant scale. So it's C, D, E, F, G, A B flat, I don't make any mentioned the F major because I want them to see that as C. I don't say Mixolydian. I just say that's the C dominant scale. And then I'll say you know play the C minor scale. C, D, E flat, G A B flat. There you go, man, C minor scale. I don't get into the Dorian stuff right away because I just want them they equate C minor chord C minor scale, C major scale C major chord C major scale. What are your thoughts on that? Well, I think that that's effective.

Unknown Speaker  54:36  
I probably unlike you, I probably spend more time trying to get them to relate the mode right to the court symbol than you do. But but your method of exposing the kids to that sound. That's great. Yeah, that's some time yeah, one more thing, Bob speaking of. And

Unknown Speaker  54:57  
I, I'm sure you deal with this too.

Unknown Speaker  55:00  
The notion that like the beginning, Jazz Jazz players, will overemphasize the one. Yeah. on everything, like, okay, play this over a C dominant seven. And they'll always start with one. Yes. And inevitably, most of the time, they'll end with one, two. Right? And so I really tried to spend some time encouraging the kids not to start with the note one, certainly not to end it with one, but to be able to explore the other sounds that are involved in that mode. Yeah. 100% Because you want to become route independent man, you do not want to be, you do not want to be one all the time. Right? Right. And of course, you know, if you get to the point with a student where they're actually doing some transcribing of solos, great solos, you will see the importance of avoiding one plays in everybody's improvisatory life. Yeah, right. Right. Yeah, I think that's really, I think that's really important. That's one of the reasons why I have them play scales, like from three to nine. Yeah, five to 11 or seven to 30. Yeah. And I could see the beauty of that, that's great. You know, yeah. And you know, and I get them then I also get them arpeggiating like that as well. Right? So if they're, if it's a if it's a C, C, if we're talking C dominant seven, I have him arpeggio, a three to nine, I have them arpeggiate from five to love and have them arpeggiate from that B flat up to the a seven to 13. Right. So without fail, they go Wait, wait a minute, man. That's like a B flat major. Yeah, right. Right. Now I go. Yeah, I see. So it's all about shapes and sounds right. You have to know the shapes and correlate the shapes to the sounds. Yeah, Bob, you know, learning to five ones to like the, you know, like a D minor seven as a two. Yeah. And then they'll look at and go, Hey, wait a second. That's not D minor. That's F major.

Unknown Speaker  56:54  
And I'll tell him well, look at what what's what you're playing in the left hand.

Unknown Speaker  57:00  
D minor chord. That's exactly right. Yeah. Yeah. So. Okay, so then, all right. So these are some of the essential skills, right, you got your voicings, you got your scales and arpeggios. You got your blues progression, you got your blues patterns that you use for improvising.

Unknown Speaker  57:20  
What about do you have students, I like to have students isolate a sound, I think that

Unknown Speaker  57:26  
you know, for improvisation purposes, like, I always tell them, I go look, if Miles Davis came back to life, and he walked into my office and said, Let's play.

Unknown Speaker  57:39  
And I said, Great, and and he's getting his horn out. And, you know, Bowden's mouthpiece. And he said to me, and he would say to me, what do you want to what do you want to play? If I said, the miles let's play C minor man, miles would go, okay. Do you want to start? Or do you want me to start, you know, in my point being is that would not be a foreign concept to him. Right? The idea of, let's take a minor sound. And let's just create a backing track or something that's going to play that minor sound, so we can bathe in it.

Unknown Speaker  58:13  
And Let's improvise on that minor sound, explore everything from the root to the 13th, to the sound inside, outside playing all kinds of stuff. But let's, let's isolate this sound and practice playing and exploring as I like to say bathe in that sound? What are your thoughts on that? Have students do that?

Unknown Speaker  58:36  
Yeah, I think that's I think that's a great idea. The what I like about that is that is that you're getting away from over reliance on knowing traditional harmonic concepts. Knowing traditional jazz theory concept, you're just going for a sound, which means that the students ears have to do the work, correct. Yeah. Rather than relying on you know, some scale or some chord. Yeah, right. Yeah. Bob. Right. Right. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker  59:09  
You know, what's fun about this? What's so fun about this band? This is how we used to talk four years ago, man, we exactly we would talk about these things, man. And this is the stuff we talked about in the hallways, man. What about doing this? What about doing that? What do you think about this? You know, it's

Unknown Speaker  59:25  
not agree, Bob that our classes with Dan with DAN HURLEY. I mean, one of the beauties of the class that had nothing to do with learning your skills, according to whatever there's an I've always felt like he, he introduced concepts to make you think all you know. And so I would leave his class thinking, Yeah, well, okay. So this is what I think he meant, and Oh, that's awesome. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Remember that keyboard lab that we were all in that year, and that keyboard lab and then you know, like those skills that you were just playing earlier? He'd call you up to the front of the room and you on Quiz

Unknown Speaker  1:00:00  
You'd have to pass, right? You'd have, you'd have to pass it. So he called you up in the front of room, you sit down at the keyboard, he turned a metronome on or whatever. You'd have to play those skills. And all the other piano cats are sitting in the room watching you, man. Yeah, right. Right. Yeah, well, so I think Bob, a lot of them were on their headsets, looking real nervous, like, you know, how am I gonna pass this and all 12 keys? And all 12?

Unknown Speaker  1:00:25  
Yeah, yeah. Those were good days, man. Yeah, they were and what a great learning opportunity, Bob, you know, to have a class based primarily on drills. That's what it was. Yeah, yeah, that's, that's exactly what it was. Here's, here's the skills that you need, like, you have to be able to play these skills, or you're not gonna go any further, any further, you know, not go any further, really solidified things, you know, for both you and I? No doubt. So, okay. I want you to talk just real briefly to what about well, how do you advise people I get this question a lot.

Unknown Speaker  1:01:00  
How much time should I practice? How much time? How much time everyday? Should I be putting in? What do what are your thoughts on that? So that's, I get that question. I know you get that question. How do you answer that question?

Unknown Speaker  1:01:13  
I like to call it how much time a day should I spend on my jazz growth? And so, like, for me, practicing is only part a part of the the 24 hour day, it's only part of it. And so you know, you practice and another great DAN HURLEY concept, you don't practice what you know, you practice what you don't know. That's exactly right. You know, I'm not gonna sit in for the next few hours after we're done with this. Practice my C blues, not gonna do it. But what I might do is, is practice something else, practice something that I don't feel as comfortable in. Yeah. Maybe go to an old solo transcription and then work on on some of that.

Unknown Speaker  1:01:54  
And Bob, the other thing, okay, so the actual hands on nuts and bolts practicing, homeboy? Well, if a student can put in a couple hours a day, that's wonderful. Yeah, right. But what we haven't touched upon is things like jazz listening, you know, how much time are you going to spend a day listening to jazz? And when we listen to jazz as an educational, you know, growth? What are we listening to? Like, I'm not going to put on my favorite Oscar Peterson album, put it on for the next three hours and say Yeah, listen to THREE HOURS of Jazz No, you have to you have to bury yourself. But for for us piano players, you have to really know the heritage of your instrument. So you have to know all the players you have to go way back you have to go back to Fats Waller Tatum, and even before that, Father Heinz Yeah. And so the listening is so important. So is listening, a form of practice. If you are listening with concentrated intent, I say yes, absolutely. Amen. to that. I agree. 100%. Like Bob, do we call like learning real book tunes? Is that practicing? Somewhat? To to some extent it is, but But you know, when I think of practicing, it's you're practicing your skill set to make you a better player. There you go. Amen. You're preaching to the choir here. Can't you're preaching to the choir? Because if I were to answer that question, what how much overall jazz growth?

Unknown Speaker  1:03:26  
Should a person engage in a day? Basically, all I could say is the more the better. Yeah, yeah. But how much strict mechanical practicing? Yeah, I think if you're able to put in a couple hours, you're doing really good. Yeah. And you bring up a great you bring up a great point, because I think everybody always equates practicing with your but being on the bench and you're pushing keys down. And that's not that's not that's just some of it, right? Yeah. And and I'm always talking about, you know, practicing away from the instrument practicing away from the instrument. So paper practice, can you spell your dominant chords? Can you spell your minor chords? Do you know what they are? Because I tell students all the time, it's your conceptual understanding that drives your physical development. So exactly. If jazz is foggy, or complicated or fragmented here, I got news for you. It's foggy, fragmented and complicated here. So you have to sort out the details conceptually first, and that will govern how you practice. So I agree with you 100%. Just you got to get away from the mindset of practicing always being but on bench, hands on keys pushing buttons. And Bob, can I add one more thing? Sure.

Unknown Speaker  1:04:34  
To everybody out there. playing a gig is not practicing. Okay. So don't come up to me and say, Yeah, well, you know, I didn't I didn't spend any time at home working on anything, but I did have a gig tonight. So no, nope, doesn't count. Yeah, yeah. Yep. Playing bad bad Leroy Brown for the 500th time is not going to that does not equivalent to practicing

Unknown Speaker  1:05:00  
That is correct, Bob.

Unknown Speaker  1:05:02  
New York, New York is not practicing. You know, so.

Unknown Speaker  1:05:07  
Yeah. Well, you know, Bob, but buddy taking him on a more advanced level even like playing let's say you're playing a jazz club, something like, you know, the balcony club or, or one of the other one of the passwords in Fort Worth or whatever. And you're playing jazz, but you're not, you know, basically playing what you already know.

Unknown Speaker  1:05:27  
Yeah, that's correct. Practice what you know, practice what you don't know. So PLO know no matter what the gig is, I don't equivalent.

Unknown Speaker  1:05:33  
Am I saying that right? Yes, I do not wait, make that equal to practicing in any way, shape or form? I agree with that. 100%. You know, another thing that I always stress too, can I always say one practice session talking about?

Unknown Speaker  1:05:50  
Let's say applying it to bet on bench pans on keys. I always say one practice session should always have one practice objective. So if you sit down the prep before you even sit on the bench, what is it that you are going to be practicing. And if you put in 20 minutes, have focused practice on a single practice session with a single practice objective, you will have great success. The problem is people sit on the bench and they go, Okay, what do I want to practice, and they scatter shoot, they just scatter shot all over the place. And they really get they really get nothing done. They think they sat there for an hour or two hours and did a bunch of stuff. But it was really counterproductive. Yeah, well, bobbin here, too. This is where good teaching comes into play. Because a good teacher is going to is going to have this organization and this mindset already established to where they can help the student decide, okay, what is your objective or objectives for the next lesson? And something specific, right, you know, right. So, yeah, yeah, yeah. The importance of teaching in jazz education. Oh, my gosh, right. Because, right, and hey, you know, can't we didn't even have to deal with this. Check this out. You know, when it was bad enough, listen, it was bad enough when we back in the 80s. You know, we'd go to Penders music there in Denton, and you'd go and you look at all the materials, the books on the shelves that you could get, it was bad enough then, but the blind alleys that you can run down now with YouTube and all the internet and the people telling you what you should be practicing and what I mean, there's a lot of there's a lot of blind alleys, you can be running down that you can get led down very easily if you're out there on your own, just trying to figure things out. Yeah, I agree. I agree. I agree. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. You know, so. So anyway, man, so Okay, so let's talk professionally, man, what are some of the professional things that you have coming up? And Devers, you've already mentioned, you're going to be doing the jazz camp next next week at Collin County? Yeah. And by the way, on Thursday night, there is a faculty concert with our guest artists, Mr. Adam Larsson, saxophonist New York.

Kent Ellingson  1:08:04  
And so it's free. So I'm inviting anybody who might see this video before then this coming Thursday, which I believe is what June 27. Right? So right, that is correct. Yeah. And I think the concert is at 730. So please, come on, if you can. Okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna go to really a couple of things that I'm involved in.

Kent Ellingson  1:08:26  
I have my own group along with my wife was vocalist, okay. And we play at the balcony club in Dallas every first Sunday of the month. 530. And there's no cover. So I'd love to have anybody if you're in the Dallas area or for any Dallasites that are listening to this. Please come out. We have a great time. And we we have fun and we try to play some good music too. Okay, so that's the that's the first Sunday of every month, first Sunday of every month. 32 about 740 Oh, bro, I'm gonna be there. I'm gonna I'm gonna just show up one of those fun days, man. And just when you hear some heckling, coming from the back of the room, you know, you know who it is, man. Well, what I hear Yeah. Although it's you, buddy. Okay.

Kent Ellingson  1:09:11  
Hey, Bob, one more thing I would like to say in case anybody can come out. Every year the Dallas jazz piano society has a Performance Series. Yes. And I am going to be on this year's Performance Series. And it's, it's going to be at Steinway Hall play. No. I know. It's a long way off. It's on November 19. Okay, and I think it starts at seven o'clock. I'm going to try. I'm going to try to do a tribute to Oscar Peterson. Wow. Yeah. Holy cow. So I'll be in a trio format, and it's free. So anybody who can can come out and and by the way, Lynn Seaton will be on base. Wow. And my good friend Kent Tillman. The drone

Kent Ellingson  1:10:00  
Who's got the best first name in Dallas? Kent Hillman will be on drums. It's a free concert. Please come up, Labatt. Oh, that's fantastic. Hey, make sure I'm gonna post all your links in the show notes you know websites and and anything you anything you want posted, please let me know I want to include that in the show notes for the listener so they can great reach out to you or come and check you out and plant if they're listening and they're here in the Dallas area. That would be fantastic. So Bob, also, I'm leaving you my email address, right? Yes, yeah. So anybody who might have a question or comment or whatever, as soon as I get you my email, I'm happy to answer anybody who would have a question based on this video. That's awesome. Yeah, and Ken all this this will be posted on YouTube, of course. And then the podcast itself, you know, and on all the major podcast directories, you know, from Spotify to Apple to I Heart Radio, Pandora and so forth. So great. Hey, buddy. I tell you what, man, I told you this was going to be feel like about five minutes, right? Yeah, man. This has been fun, Bob. But Bob, we need to get together. Oh my God, I need to get together sometime. Oh my gosh. You know, we're gonna make that happen. I'm gonna we're gonna make that happen. Because you know, 40 years.

Kent Ellingson  1:11:16  
Oh, you haven't changed a bit by the way? Oh, yeah. You haven't either, man. Thanks, man. So you know, but you know what this proves man can't I'm gonna tell you, man. Here's what this proves. genuine friendship is forever, man. And Yeah, no kidding, man. I mean, here we are. We haven't been able to hang for a long time. But I feel like we just hung yesterday. I mean, it. It's just been a blessing to get to know you one of my highlights at North Texas when I think back in my days at North Texas State.

Bob Lawrence  1:11:45  
You pop into that, that memory immediately. So I can't think Yeah, man. I can't thank you enough. I love you, brother. And we got to slow to grow. Yeah, we got to spend a week we'll get together sometime soon. Oh my gosh. Absolutely can man I can't even think I know. You're incredibly busy. I'll let you go. I can't even thank you enough man for carving out time to spend with me today. And it's so this has been my pleasure. And this has been a lot of fun. Bob asked again sometime. Oh, we will say hey, man, I'm going to have you back on man. That's awesome. All right. Thank you can't

Bob Lawrence  1:12:17  
take care of our thanks so much. My pleasure. Bye. Bye bye.

Bob Lawrence  1:12:20  
Well, I hope you have enjoyed this jazz panel skills podcast episode was special guest Ken Ellingson. Al Franzen, an old teacher of mine used to remind me after every lesson don't forget Bob, the greatest thing about music is the people you meet through it. Meeting can't 40 years ago. Spending time with him again today just confirms our sentiment 100% If you are a jazz panel skills member I will see you online and the masterclass this Thursday evening at 8pm to discuss Ken's interview and of course to answer any questions you have regarding the study of jazz. If you have questions needed attention before Thursday, I want to encourage you to post them in the jazz panel scales forums, so all of the members can benefit. If you need to reach me you can do so by phone my office's office number here at the Dallas school music is 972-380-8050 my extension is 211 if you prefer email, Dr. Lawrence, Dr. Lawrence at jazz piano skills.com. Or you can use the nifty little SpeakPipe widget that is found I believe on just about every page of the jazz piano skills website.

Unknown Speaker  1:13:39  
Well, there's my cue. That's it for now. And until next week, enjoy the pearls of wisdom, shared by Kent Ellingson and most of all, have fun as you discover, learn and play jazz piano