Dr. JB Dyas, Pt. 4

Dr. Bob Lawrence  0:30  
See it? He starts to happen yet vac so much. So, JB so oftentimes when I'm playing and somebody says, What do you play in there? I have to stop and I have to think about it. I gotta go. Okay, wait a minute, I got the third here. I got, I got the because I just, I don't even think of it that way anymore. I'm playing shapes.

Again the metaphor of speaking, are you thinking that I just used a noun and I used a magic modifier. And if you really want it, and sometimes you have to think, you know, I'm speaking to these pretty hip people, I better. I better put in a dangling participle and a gerund. You know, so they know I'm hip here. And obviously, I'll sneak in one of those, like, a word like autodidactic. Yes, right. You know, that word? autodidact? Yeah,

I don't know. I don't know. I never use that. autodidactic

Dr. JB Dyas  1:23  
it didactic means teaching. autodidactic means self teaching. And when it comes right down to the very end of it, a jazz musician has to be autodidactic autodidactic. than for other people. But you got to teach yourself. You have to be autodidactic

Dr. Bob Lawrence  1:40  
and not perfunctory.

Dr. JB Dyas  1:48  
So yeah, with slip, slip. You slip in a Chris Potter lick, you know, I don't think I'm hip enough. Go.

Dr. Bob Lawrence  1:59  
Wow, this has been really cool. Now. Okay. So now I want to kind of do a little change of direction for a second JB, you know, I mentioned at the beginning of podcast, we are attacking the JB Dias List of 104 at jazz piano skills. And we're looking at these tunes in a very systematic way of, of dissecting them. We start harmonically. And then we move to a melodic analysis. And then we look at the tune for Improvisation Improvisation development. So I want to kind of talk about each of those categories, and get your input on tune learning, and, and maybe shine some, some light on tune learning for our listeners to because tune learning just like voicings, once you start to learn how to learn tunes, it becomes a very quick process. It's not like starting over every time. So harmonically, you know, we'll take like, for instance, the very first time that we tackled there will never be another you love the tune, classic standard Jazz Jazz standard that everybody needs to know. So we took a look at it first harmonically. So the very first thing that we did look at the form of the piece, right, I'm always telling I'm always telling students what form be aware, we have to be aware of the form of the piece, before we go any further, let's look at the form of the town, I have students look at the unique changes that are found within the tune how many unique chord changes are within there will never be another you the thinking the thinking JB is can't play the chords, if you can't play the chords that are in the tune, you're gonna have a hard time playing the tune, right? And then we look at the changes and we look at the harmonic function of the two. Now, this is where I encourage students to be able to think the opposite of what they see. So if I'm seeing a set of chord changes, like on a lead sheet, E flat major seven, and we're in the key of E flat, I think one and then and then we get to a D half diminish, right? I think that's I think of that as a seven half diminished, go into the g7 go into a three seven go into the C minor go into the six minor. So, I want them to look at the be able to look at the chord symbols think harmonic function, I want them to look at a harmonic function lead sheet and think chord symbols right. So, right being able to think the opposite of what you see. So, so, then we we look, we break the tune apart that way and then we actually take the tune and look at the common harmonic movement that exists in the tune that we are going to find in numerous standards 1000s of standards. So like for instance, in there will never be another you that d hat diminished go into that g7 going to that C minor, you know that seven goes go into three go into six. Now this is the way I was taught JB I was taught to hear root movement, and then and then hear sound attached to the root movement. So is that a major sound or a minor sound, I was taught that every 1234567 could be a major dominant minor, half diminished or diminished. My job was to hear root movement, and then hear the quality of the sound that was attached to that root movement. And so I don't think I don't think of it as E flat major seven, going to the minor, the two, five of the six chord, I think of it as this, the major slide and down to the half diminished, go into the three dominant Go, go into six minor, and then and you see that in all kinds of tunes, that kind of harmonic movement, or that when it goes to the B flat minor, to the E, flat seven to the A flat major in that tune. I hear that and see that as that's my five minor go into the one seven, go into the four, which happens and I can't even tell you how many standards that happens in so how do you approach how do you approach the harmonic function? A teaching harmonic function to students?

Dr. JB Dyas  6:11  
Very similar. Okay. And boy, another you is such a great tune to start with because because, you know, the Harry Warren who wrote the tune, right? He did everything, right. Yes, like he took my class.

Dr. Bob Lawrence  6:36  
And he got an A.

Dr. JB Dyas  6:39  
So, so I'm gonna share the screen with you for a second. Sure. And hold on one second. Let me do my thing again. Screen. Window. Share. Okay. Do you see another you? There it is. Yeah, there it is. So let me just make this we'll make this a little bigger. Okay, can you see? Can you see this? Let me Yeah. Okay, so I say it starts on the one chord. Yep. Then it does a two five and a relative minor. Boy is that ever common. All the time, all the time, all the time, Autumn Leaves, starts to five, one in major goes to 514 and then to five and the relative minor. So boys is great, then goes down a whole step and does a good that C minor goes down a whole step and does to five in the key of four. Another common and notice right on this is the form of the tune is a B A C, so this is the B section right here. Right? Right. And so it goes gonna go to the key of four, which is very, very common, right? And how do we go everywhere go anywhere in jazz, we go there by 251. Of course we do. Now we're on a flat, and then D flat seven is the flat seven, seven. In the key of E flat, flat seven sevens in the key of E flat and flat seven sevens. Always go to one. Fives go to one, flat two sevens, which is the tritone substitute of fives go to one and the other one is flat, seven, seven. Correct because all that is is a minor. playgirl cadence. That's right, with a different bass note. Alright. And so that happened. That happens in groovin high happens a lot to bow flat seven sevens. Number one. Now we just do our one six, like we're doing 16251625. All right. We're now on F seven. F seven is a two seven, and two sevens. Always go to two minor. And whenever I say always, I mean usually.

Dr. Bob Lawrence  9:11  
Yeah, right. When you say always you're saying if I add a copyright on that I'd be a really rich man, man.

Dr. JB Dyas  9:17  
Oh man. So Girl from Ipanema to seven to 2 million, right? Watch what happens to seven to two, almost every train to 77. Right? Anytime you're on a two seven, it goes to two minor. And let's say that f7 went to B flat seven. And then you're gonna say well, wait a minute. f7 just went to B flat seven like on a blues? f7 To be Yeah, right. Right. But no, because anytime you have a dominant sevens, you can always insert the related to chord, of course Oh, anytime it does go to just a run the circle to another dominant just think of pay. It's just just taking out one of the numbers and the two five is just taken out that wouldn't go in directly. So This does everything right? One to five and the relative minor, two, five and four, four goes around the circle of fourths to flat seven flat sevens always go to one. Now let's count for 162. Sevens always go to two minor. And two minors always go to five and five, always go to one. And that Wallah, you've just learned 100 tunes right there.

Dr. Bob Lawrence  10:24  
That's exactly right now, JB, I'm an old school guy. I grew up, I came up with John Mohegan, right, the John Mohegan books, and John, John Mohegan, was a big Roman numeral. He did all the Roman numeral analysis and all his Roman numeral analysis were always done in relationship to the parent key. And so that's why I was, you know, so when you're talking about that 251 Go into the two, five go into the four, right? Mohegan, would have that notated as five minor, go into one, seven, go into four major. Exactly right. Right. Exactly. Right. Right. Yeah. So you, you hear I mean, you know it as a two you hear it as a 251. When you play it, you know that your is a 251 in the key of in the four. But But Mohegan, was really big on harmonic function being done in relationship to the parent key. And I think the reason why is because when I learned a tune like that, and now you asked me to play, there will never be another you in the key of A flat instead of E flat, I have my template, I know, I know, exactly. I'm thinking those changes based on the parent key, and I know what's going on. So I make a distinction with students all the time that this is what I call harmonic function. Now chord scale relationships, which is another skill, where you have to be able to look at that B flat minor, go into E flat seven, A flat major, that five minor go into one, seven, go into four, you got to be able to understand that that's a 251 in the key of A flat. So there's your chord scale relationship, when improvising over there will never be another you. What are your thoughts on all that?

Dr. JB Dyas  12:08  
I'm absolutely hip to what you're saying. So when it goes to five, one in for someone will say, is it better to think, to five one in four? Or is it better to think five? Is a better thing? Five minus one, seven? And the answer is, yes.

Dr. Bob Lawrence  12:30  
That's right. Right. That's exactly.

Dr. JB Dyas  12:33  
It's the same. I like to think two, five and four, because I actually feel like I'm in another key, it doesn't feel like a right. So. And that's the way that I hear it from, you know, I say, Oh, it's a 251 in four. But I also know that in the, the the, the, the parallel key, the parallel key, that is five minor 174, right, the original was

Dr. Bob Lawrence  13:04  
called the yellow key. Yeah. So it's no different than like, if I see a two dominant, I just think of it as a two dominant, I don't think of it as that's the five if I'm in the key of C. And I see a D seven, I don't think of that as the five in the key of G. I know it's the five in the key of G but I just think of it as a two seven, exactly

Dr. JB Dyas  13:24  
a five, seven, and a dominant five of two. It's just easier to say to seven to seven. The reason why the again, the reason why five of twos go to two is because it's the five of two. Yeah, the reason why 277 goes to two because it's the five seven of two, which goes to two. Yeah, so to me, I always think 251 And four, but I always think two seven go into two minor, because it's it's not distant enough. Long, it's not for long, right? For a long enough period of time. Yeah. And if you've been in f7, assuming f major, G seven, G minor, C seven, or G flat seven, try sub, right. So, it happened so much. I've just always told my students to sevens go to two minor. C ds. And by the way, the other thing I say that on two sevens and flat seven sevens. If you want to be hip, put a sharp four on them. Right? They always do. Right here on Stan gets I mean, and Stan gets does even name I think in D flat. No bright nobody hipped him to the definitive key. So

Dr. Bob Lawrence  14:50  
which I think you probably got that from because Oscar Peterson does it and D flat and I think that maybe they the two of them were playing together. I don't know. Yeah. So

Dr. JB Dyas  14:56  
the definitive very rarely does the definitive of recording of a tune, which everyone would agree that the definitive recording of Ipanema is standard gets. Rarely is it in a different key, then you have what the definitive key is. But yeah, it happens. I was just talking about that with black Orpheus. Stan gets does but everyone does it in a minor, right? He does it in F minor. And Wayne Shorter does it in F minor, and those that like the definitive recording. So who came up with the A minor thing? Yeah, right, right. But anyway, back to the to the two, seven, go into two minor, two sevens. flat seven sevens always go to one, two sevens always go to two minor, and put a sharp four on those scores. And you sound like jazz? Yeah,

Dr. Bob Lawrence  15:49  
that's right. Yeah, you know, and I guess, you know, I can't tell you how many times when I started when I actually started doing for me when I was learning all this. When I started realizing when I started doing the like, the Mohegan stuff, and I would go like, okay, sharp, four to seven to three to six. I can't tell you how many times JB, I would say to myself, so that's what that is. In other words, I would hear players playing that. And it was like such it was like the clouds parting when I started being able to go, Okay, whenever I hear that, from now on, I get that, that's a sharp for going into a seven, go into a three to a six. And so that's how I just that's how I learned tunes was just by Roman numerals in relationship to the parent key. And then hearing quality after that, and then understanding chord relationships after that. So kind of like a three tier or a three step process.

Dr. JB Dyas  16:44  
Love it. For him. Yeah, Bob. Yeah. One of the things that when all this stuff sounds overwhelming to your students, right, and, and to my students in the beginning, it unfolds. It does. And it's a kick, man, you'll start to see it. When you've when you like you said the clouds. Yeah, start the hard part. It's a kick, and you just have to hang in with it and not get discouraged. Because your students, my students, they will see it. Yeah, they won't just what's so great about the piano, and this is why yes, with his with his few piano chops as I have, and this would be a lesson to all you take Bob's course and practice because you don't want to be like me who struggles but I when I think music I think piano I'm you know, I'm a bass, right. But I see. I see the piano in my mind. I see, you know, so important. And every every great instrumentalist that I know has got functional piano chops.

Dr. Bob Lawrence  18:01  
There's no question about it. I mean,

Dr. JB Dyas  18:02  
Chris Potter, you could hire Chris Potter to play piano on your gig. Right now. You know, Robert Glasper or Herbie Hancock, I don't think you have to worry about their place in keyboard history. But he's going to play really nice on the gig, you're gonna be glad to have them so.

Dr. Bob Lawrence  18:19  
Yeah, you know, I'll tell you what, man it was always so embarrassing at North Texas when our improv classes because rich Madison and Jack Peterson would walk into the class and they and they they'd come over to the piano bench and tell us piano players move over and they'd sit down and they start banging out changes and as piano players are gonna like, you know, that's really embarrassing man when a euphonium player comes over and lays out lays down better changes than we do. voicings and we do that we better start practice.

Dr. JB Dyas  18:48  
Yeah, they were the real pioneers of jazz pedagogy. Oh my goodness gracious. Jack Peterson and Dan Hurley

Dr. Bob Lawrence  18:55  
Yeah, those guys. Jerry

Dr. JB Dyas  18:57  
Coker just passed. Did he just pass just passed last week?

Dr. Bob Lawrence  19:01  
I did not know that.

Dr. JB Dyas  19:03  
And boy did he pointed to see have a leg great legacy, you know, Oh, unbelievable fusion to jazz pedagogy, David Baker, Jamey Aebersold. Those are the true pioneers of jazz pedagogy.

Dr. Bob Lawrence  19:15  
That's exactly right. You know, I think that when I think about jazz pedagogy, I, you know, I mentioned John McKagan, because I think Mohegan was like one of the early pioneers. And then you got the guys like Coker and Baker and Madison and Peterson and DAN HURLEY and those guys coming in right behind Mohegan and wow, what a treasure they've given to the to the jazz world into jazz education. Those

Dr. JB Dyas  19:41  
Mohegan books are still great, you know. People should still check those out.

Dr. Bob Lawrence  19:46  
Yeah, you know, look, look, I'm going to show you something you'll get a big kick out of this. This is my very first Yeah, the covers gone Man, this is from 19 Look at the look at the dot resolution on that image. But I tell everybody

Dr. JB Dyas  20:07  
lewdly I absolutely remember that book. I wish I still had it. But I absolutely remember that. Do you remember that photo on the back? And

Dr. Bob Lawrence  20:15  
remember this? Here's what I tell everybody. Here's jazz, gold, you're ready. This is jazz, gold. This is what everybody needs to have in their hands, like right now at the beginning of their journey.

Dr. JB Dyas  20:27  
Yeah, nice.

Dr. Bob Lawrence  20:30  
Right there is. I mean, isn't that jazz gold? That's classic. It doesn't get it. I mean, and you think about when he put this together. I mean, this is like, I still remember I still remember getting this in my hands as a as a kid, you know, 14 years old. And you'll get you'll laugh at this I, I put masking tape over the notes. Because I just wanted to see the chord symbols, right. So so then I thought to myself, Okay, I think I got it. And I took the masking tape, I went to take the masking tape off and all the notes came off the staff with the masking tape. So I had to go buy another book.

Dr. JB Dyas  21:11  
I mean, even a book is old school nowadays.

Dr. Bob Lawrence  21:17  
Oh, my goodness. That's okay. Yeah, that bring back some memories for you there, JB? Yeah, I

Dr. JB Dyas  21:23  
mean, you know, getting those fundamentals, the younger you get, and it doesn't mean you can't still be good when you're older. It just means it's better. Right? When you're younger, and because every you're learning everything, you're learning how to walk and talk and speak and right, move all your muscles. But adults that want to get into this, especially if they've had classical chops they played they had piano lessons as a kid, they can get this stuff. And it enriches their lives, man. I've seen it happen. Absolutely.

Dr. Bob Lawrence  21:51  
So okay, so then we go, Hey, JB, we moved from the harmonic work that we just laid out. Then we we attack the tune melodically in the very first thing. Look, I encourage every student, I want to get your take on this. I go we just learned the melody by ear please. Like listen to a definitive recording. Listen to, you know, I like to I say you know, even if before you listen to a definitive recording, if you're learning, there's oftentimes I said, you know, I turned to vocalist first. And then I go to instrumentalist, and then I go to pianist, and I said when vocalist, I'll turn to vocalist who are going to give me a pretty straight rendition of the tune, because because I want to hear the melody. So I might turn to like a Sinatra. Or I might even dial it back further from Sinatra, I might listen to Doris Day, or Perry Como, or Andy Williams, to get a really straight, really straight interpretation of the melody so that I can start poking it out and playing it by ear. What are your thoughts on that?

Dr. JB Dyas  22:51  
I agree, I think the goal is to be able to do everything by ear, the intellect just informs the ear. And that's right. And, like, I'll give you a perfect example of when I teach tune learning to be able to play things in all keys. I'm going to put this, put this on the piano, like I'm teaching over the rainbow. And so every you know, everybody sing everybody sings at first

dog. And I'll say can you play this by ear? And everybody goes, just by ear, I just tell them the starting note. Yeah, right. When I say can you play this by ear? And everybody can and they do it just by ear. And then I'll say can you play this by ear? And they can now say I'm going to start on an F and play a lick for you. And I want you to play it back for me by ear. And everybody can play it by ear. And then I'll say can you play this? And they can. I said I'm going to give you a six bar lick and I want you to play it back by ear all six bars

and everybody can do it. All I gave him was the starting note. And the reason is, is because they're all diatonic steps in thirds, your ear doesn't play tricks on you for diatonic steps in thirds, everybody can do that. And the good news is is that most the overwhelming number of standards and jazz classics, most everything is steps and third That's, that's the only thing you have to memorize. That's exactly right is the weird leaps or whatever. So we'll take over the rainbow and I'll say okay, we look at it, it's all diatonic. The, the highest note is the route. The lowest note is the six. It's all diatonic. And there's three jumps. 1816 and 64181664. Memorize that everyone, everybody go one eight. Everyone go one, six, think what the six is 12345616. Take that note down an octave, and go six, four. And four is always easy to find, because it's right around the circle from the root going on the circle of fourths. So everything else is by ear. So 1/8 now by ear. One six. Now by ear six, four. Everything by ear. Yep, now we're going to do it in the key of F.

Dr. Bob Lawrence  26:12  
Yeah, play

Dr. JB Dyas  26:14  
good. Play the the weirdness. So we got 1816. And then 646. We got what's we got to make sure we hit the right notes. One eight, right. 1664 A you got to think about it. What did I did think about what's so I got that now. 181664 now over the rainbow diatonic the leaps I memorized ego, beliefs I memorize now diatonic all step wise. Yeah, very good. Well, they can now they can play that. And all he gets very good, because they've checked out the part. Because if I just taught it by ear, everybody would get this. Yeah, half the people would miss this. Everybody would miss that. Yeah, right.

Dr. Bob Lawrence  27:13  
Yeah.

Dr. JB Dyas  27:14  
But memorize that ahead of time. Yeah, that's,

Dr. Bob Lawrence  27:17  
that's really good. And I stress the same kind of thing. You know, with the melodic learning, I actually kind of select Target, you know, the beginning note of the phrase of the musical phrase, the end note of the musical phrase becomes our, our focus points. And then can you can you connect the dots can you get from the beginning of the phrase to the end of the phrase, right? But but doing it all by ear, like you're saying all by ear, and the more you do it, the easier it becomes? Exactly

Dr. JB Dyas  27:47  
right. And where the where the ear plays tricks on you. Because, you know, I've been doing this a long time. Intervals are still, you know, kicking my butt. So yeah, whatever, whatever you can't hear you intellectualize but the goal is to be able to hear everything. Right. And to help you get there. Like that six, four thing. Yeah, I can hear that now. And usually nailed that. Yeah. And

Dr. Bob Lawrence  28:17  
sooner or later, right? It's funny, because you make this distinction between the oral skills and the intellectual skills and how the two of them work together. In fact, they worked, they start working so much together that you get to a point, I tell students all the time you get to the point that where you go, Hmm, did I know that? Because I heard it? Or did I know that because I intellectually understood it. And then you kind of throw your arms up and go, You know what? Who cares? I know it

Dr. JB Dyas  28:44  
again. You're so right. But like, where did we learn the? Where did we learn the word for for pencil? I mean, it doesn't matter. Like I say, doesn't matter where you learned it or how you learned it?

Dr. Bob Lawrence  28:59  
Right?

Dr. JB Dyas  29:00  
I'm not gonna go Oh, man. What is this thing? Got it? Look, you just you've just done it so many times. And it's, as I say that the same thing with learning vocabulary. You know, if you learn just a little vocabulary, transcribe, just wondering, you know, it sounds like you're copying, but once you use when you're playing, you don't know if that's something you just came up with, or maybe something you heard, or maybe it's a hybrid of something. Just like when you speak like, I've learned all these words, right? I've learned these words, I practice speaking, and now I'm just improvising. Right? And I'm sure somebody said once before, and now I'm just improvising. And now I'm just improvising. So maybe I caught that from somebody, but it's part of my vocabulary right now. Right? So so it's the same thing in jazz. You learn all the stuff and you play and where it came from. Doesn't matter. If unless you're an analyst and you're analyzing current That's that's a different thing but not not on the perfect not when you're performing. Correct.

Dr. Bob Lawrence  30:04  
Correct. So okay, so now then we we move from our melodic analysis and studying the tune to using the tune now for improvisation development now here's the big thing, JB. You know, the word improvisation is a little tricky, because I think when people hear the word improvisation they think, immediately the definition is making something up. That is creative that I've never played before, or maybe has never been played before. And and that couldn't be further from the truth of what we are referring to when we talk about improvisation. Right. And and so, what I always try to do with students, and it's kind of funny, I just did an interview with Mark Davis, and Milwaukee. Yeah, Milwaukee and Milwaukee jazz Institute. Yeah, right. And Mark, Mark had a great expression that I love. He said, You know, our job as educators, when it comes to improvisation is helping a student get their foot in the door, just help them get their foot in the door. Because once you get your foot in the door, you actually start to experience improvisation. And then it just snowballs from there, right. So one of the things that a teacher did with me when I was young, right, we would take a tune like there would never be another you. And he would say we're going to improvise on there will never be another you are going to improvise using the roots of each chord, only the roots of each chord only. So when it's E flat major, dude, you do something with E, that note E flat, you do something rhythmically with the note E flat. And when it gets the D half diminished, I want you to do something rhythmically with the note D. And when it gets that G seven, do something with that note G one note at a time and and so what that teacher was helping me do is get my foot in the door improvising. And what was the big takeaway really, that I didn't understand till many years later, was that actually captures the very essence of improvisation because improvisation is what we do with shapes and sounds rhythmically, what we do with the shapes and sounds rhythmically, so for me to take my E flat major seven, take my note E flat and do something rhythmically with that note, and then go to my D half diminished and do something rhythmically with that D, and try to make some kind of musical connection between that melodic connection between that E flat and that d. That in that activity in and of itself captures the entirety of jazz improvisation. What are your thoughts on that?

Dr. JB Dyas  32:45  
I agree, and I. And I also think that when you're learning jazz, and you're learning vocabulary, rather than the definition, spontaneous composition,

Dr. Bob Lawrence  33:02  
yes. Right.

Dr. JB Dyas  33:03  
Spontaneous reorganization. There you go. And that's how we speak none of these words that I'm saying today, have I made up? And I'm not going to because that would really confuse you as a listener, if I'm just saying, you know, what, the bucho thing? Yeah, and then

Dr. Bob Lawrence  33:22  
I think that HyperDeck a backtick thing that you threw on me a little while back that was

Dr. JB Dyas  33:31  
so I will, I will, you know, I never I don't do just the routes that I do the routes and thirds for the right at the right routes in thirds. And also I'll take a tune like song for my father. And I will just say play routes in thirds only. And song for my father, just as four chords are all of you who are listening that don't know it's F minor, D flat seven, D flat seven, G minor with a C in the bass. So it's a C sus chord, A minor, and then F minor again. So the root movement, F minor, E flat seven, D flat seven, G minor, F minor. Now just using roots in thirds, from that I'm going to play an A respectable hopefully. First Date. There's with with the Jamie Jamie Aebersold. Play along.

Dr. Bob Lawrence  34:26  
Cool. Let's hear this

Unknown Speaker  34:28  
for 123.

Dr. Bob Lawrence  34:49  
You're here. Yeah. That's a great first date, man.

Dr. JB Dyas  34:52  
I'd go out with you again. And the next thing. So we'll use different notes of this scales. You know different notes of the arpeggio. Yeah, right? And then you know, so I'll say add the two. I'll say let me let me let me find it here. Again, I'll say add the two and see what it sounds like what you can do 341234.

And then I'll say now we got to transcribe something from Horace silver, got to transcribe something from Horace silver. So we'll, we'll listen to a little bit of Horus here

ball sadly one horse just played 13451413.

Listen again.

Of course, he's got piano, right, he plays the third, third. So now we're going to insert that. But we're not going to let it sound like it's contrived. We're going to play what we played before, just roots in thirds, and maybe insert that link

Dr. Bob Lawrence  37:04  
go.

Dr. JB Dyas  37:06  
No. Anybody that has, here's the play. They say, hey, check out Horace silver. And I have credibility.

Dr. Bob Lawrence  37:18  
There you go. You know, you just you know, here's, here's something fascinating. And you really just touched upon it with your, your demonstration here with with the third eye. I tell every student that look, every sound in music, major dominant minor half diminished and diminished. If I take that sound from the root to the 13th. It's a stacking of thirds, root, the third third 557-799-1111 13 is a stacking of thirds. Now why this is so important is because I can take any third. If you can master improvising with the third, you've mastered improvising because the third itself contains everything you need. If I take the if I take, if I take C minor, a C and an E flat, and I just play those two notes back and forth, I say to a student I said would you agree that that's an arpeggio? That's arpeggio motion C to E flat and they go yes. I said, Okay. Now, like what you just did? Let's see if we dropped the second in there. Right? C D, E flat. Now, would you I play that back and forth. So now would you would you would you agree with me that that scale motion? C D E flat? And they go yes, yes. I go. Okay. And now what if about that C sharp? Would you agree that that C sharp creates tension? And they go Yes, I said so in the third. I have arpeggio movement. I have scale movement. And I have tension tones. What else do I need? That's

Dr. JB Dyas  38:53  
golden Bob. That's beautiful.

Dr. Bob Lawrence  38:58  
And I could do that on any third. Any third? Yeah. All right, I can take a C major C and E. I got my arpeggio, I got C D E, I got my scale, and I got my D flat and E flat are my tension tones. Yeah, if I can, if I can practice. If I can practice improvising on that third, and guess what? That C and E, that's the root and third of C major. But that's that C and E is the third and fifth of a minor. And that C and E is the fifth and seventh of F major.

Dr. JB Dyas  39:37  
Yeah, you know, it's it's, it's not that deep really. You know, I remember Christian McBride would talk about that is you know, sometimes you just need to play the roots on one when you're walking the base route. How to start, you know, people it's not the necessarily that deep, right? And you know, we talk about these things and, you know, to a novice to a newcomer to jazz, it sounds like oh my god, it's calculus. But it really isn't that deep once once you get the fundamentals. And that's why thanks so many jazz musicians like you know, here at the Institute at the Herbie Hancock Institute where I'm where I teach and where I'm coming from today. We have the greatest jazz artists come here to teach. It's a full fellowship program. It's a master's degree program. Everyone who gets in gets goes for free. I mean, wow, full fellowship, my room and board stipend and the whole bit Wow, they just played for 10 days. They just got back last week from being 10 days in Europe with excuse me in India, with Herbie but we have Chris Potter and Jake goats and and Terri Lynn Carrington. I mean, just the the greatest players and the grad students here are so good. I mean, they're better than most most pros in Los Angeles. Frankly, we have trouble finding people for to teach them. But the great teachers the the decodes and Chris Potter's and, and Terri Lynn Carrington and Herbie Hancock's, they always talk about fundamentals. Yeah, to these brilliant, young jazz players are still talking about fundamentals. Get your fundamentals together, man. Yeah. And you will, you will become a jazz musician.

Dr. Bob Lawrence  41:36  
That's right. You know,

Dr. JB Dyas  41:37  
how much artistry has a lot to much artistry you have has a lot to do with who you are inside and how you live and you've loved and where you've traveled and who you listen to? Yeah, but to be a functioning jazz musician. Learn the fundamentals, and you can hang in any jam session.

Dr. Bob Lawrence  41:57  
And never stop practicing the fundamentals ever. Yep.

Dr. JB Dyas  42:00  
They talk about that all the time. Yeah, it's it's no

Dr. Bob Lawrence  42:03  
different. You know, I think we may have mentioned that the last time we were together, you know, I'm a huge baseball fan. And every time I go to spring training, to watch the big leaguers, you'd think you're watching a literally can't, because these are big leaguers out there fielding ground balls, right, catching pop ups, practicing throwing over the first, they're practicing all the fundamentals that you would see on a little league diamond, and you got the best baseball players in the world practicing the fundamentals at Spring training. So there's something to be said about that. Yeah.

Dr. JB Dyas  42:34  
You know, it's really, it's really true. And, and when these cats don't have their fundamentals together, you know, their posing gets, right, you know, you can demonstrate that for real. It's like, you know, like, people would say, they would they would hear somebody played, you know, very modern, and then they'd hear Wayne Shorter play modern. And why why was Wayne, so much better than these cats that, you know, went from step one and two, skip steps? 345 and six, and now we're at seven and eight. You know, you know, like, well, that's not what I hear, man. Yeah, I want to play what I hear. I don't need the changes. I just play organically. Right? And the reason is, is because we did all the homework. It was a great bebop player. He demonstrated that here at the institute a few times freak people out, suddenly like bird playing on The Sopranos says he says, this all informs. Because when you learn bebop, you learn how music works. You learned? That's right. Yeah, that's right. And so you learn bebop first and then in you try to skip those steps. It's, it's not even real.

Dr. Bob Lawrence  43:52  
Yeah. You know, going back to what you're talking about to you know, like, yeah, it's not that deep. You know, one of the things I try to stress to students my job as an educator, jazz educator, I tell students that I work with, and I tell I tell listeners on jazz piano skills all the time as well, you know, my job is to, I have to get you to the point to where music is really, really easy and really simple. conceptually. If you understand it, if it's become simplified here, then you have a shot here. If it's complicated and fragmented and confusing, and you know hard here, I'm telling you, you have no shot. So, you have this, you know, going back that you have to see the third as arpeggio scale tension. Once you start seeing music broken down and simplified. Now you have a shot at really developing as a player. You really have a shot.

Dr. JB Dyas  44:54  
Yeah. And you know what I love? Best about what you're doing right now. Well, Bob is how you're doing the tunes. You're, you're, they're learning what they need to learn to play on that tune. Right? And then they learn another tune. And they learn what they need to play on that tune. And they say, Well, I'm using stuff from the previous. That's just, and then so when they, when they get to number three, they're using stuff from tunes one and two. And when they get to, to number 10, they're using stuff from tunes one through nine. Yeah, right. And then pretty soon, once they get through that list of 52, on the left hand side, they're well on their way. And on that list, you know, that list of 104 tunes on the left hand side, the first 52 are generally easier, right on the second list, the second side, because you have on that first side, you have tunes like you have tunes like Blue Bossa and song for my father and B flat blues. And on that right hand side, you have giant steps and countdown and right and confirmation and Donnelly. Right? Much like everyone. And so if anybody that knows tunes would say, yes, those tunes on the right are more difficult than the tunes on the left. Yeah, but every one that I've had all my students that have gone through those 52 tunes on the left first, find the 52 tunes on the right. easier, because they've gotten better, faster than the list has gotten harder. Yeah,

Dr. Bob Lawrence  46:32  
that's right. That's right. You're exactly right. So it's, you know, one of my mentors when I was a kid was this old, crusty old jazz player by the name of Warren Parrish. Car Mechanic during the day, Oscar Peterson at night. And, and this was an album he did Warren Parrish. You know, this cat named Louis Bellson. And this this cat here, George Divini. I don't know if you heard of those guys. Well, Warren, is this. This is This is him right here. Right. Yeah. Car Mechanic. JB, I'm

Dr. JB Dyas  47:11  
telling you grease. Belson on that record. Yeah. He's

Dr. Bob Lawrence  47:14  
playing with Louie. He's playing with Louie Bellson and George Divya. Great. Right. And, and so he was one of my mentors growing up. And I said to him, one day I said to him, Warren, I'm only like 14 years old, you know, I said, How do you know so many tunes. I said, Everybody comes in here and request the tune. You play it, every vocalist that comes up and steps on stage and wants to sing a song and whatever key you play it. How do you know so many tones? And he looked at he always he always had a cigar that long, right? With greasy fingernails, and he takes the cigar. He he blow the smoke in my face. I'm only 14 years old. He says, he says What the hell are you talking about? I said, so he's looking at me. Like I just asked a really dumb question. And I said, what I'm talking about? How do you know so many tunes? He says he takes another puff. He goes, they're all the same? Yeah. And at 14 I didn't have any clue what he was talking about. And I thought he's crazy. But now I know what he's talking about. Yeah.

Dr. JB Dyas  48:23  
And it's a beautiful thing. When you start to see it. Yeah, yeah. When you start to see it another you. What a great tune to start with. Yeah, you're gonna be able to say so many times. Just like in another you. Just like you did that another you. You

Dr. Bob Lawrence  48:42  
did that in another you. In fact, the next time that we're doing the next tune that we're doing is Indiana, in Indiana. In Indiana, what do you got in Indiana? Don't you have some you have the exact same stuff in Indiana that you got it there will never be another you write

Dr. JB Dyas  48:56  
great film. And I'm so glad that you're teaching, you know, a standard like that, you know, so many of the kids learn do it backwards. Now they come in and they play Donna Lee, and they don't know where he and I always say make sure you learn the source first. Absolutely. So before you learn groovin high make sure you know whispering Yeah, yeah. Before you learn OLIO make sure you know I got rhythm and yeah and such.

Dr. Bob Lawrence  49:19  
Yeah, I was just listening. I was just listening to Louie Louie Armstrong, and those cats playing Indiana. And I just sat back, Jamie I just sat back I said man, those old dudes can flame man those old dudes can play. What what great musicians man. So anyway, so that's that's kind of our breakdown to your tuneless that I'm gonna keep you posted on that this year as we go through the list, but that's that's how we're approaching every one of those tunes. We're doing a harmonic analysis followed by melodic analysis followed by let's let's use it as a tool to develop some improvisation vocabulary. How do we go about doing that we're gonna, we're gonna use the same formula, JB, same formula, new tune, put it through the same assembly line, new tune, same assembly line, new tune, same assembly line. And not only that, not only will they see the similarities and the tunes, the commonalities that exist in those tunes, but the comfort of having a process, the same process of learning attune, they'll get that down to where they become a machine. And we'll be able to blow through that list of 104 tunes that you have out there. In no time. Hopefully, that's the game plan.

Dr. JB Dyas  50:35  
It's a great game plan. And you'll see that they get faster and faster and faster going through the process. Yep, that's exactly right. Like, I would always say that, you know, it took me a week to learn my first tune. And then the next tune took me six days. Right, and the next five and the next for the next three and the next two and the next one day, and then a half a day. Yeah. And then, and then 12 hours, then six hours, three hours, then an hour and a half, in 45 minutes. And here. Excuse me, excuse me a second. Sorry, I had to go learn three tunes.

Dr. Bob Lawrence  51:25  
Right? Well, I tell I tell students that that you'll get to the point where you're in the car driving and you're hearing a tune and you're learning the tune as you hear it. And and you get home and you go man, that was a great tune. Let me poke that out. Because you just you heard it. And you heard what was happening, the movement in the tune and you went to the keys and poked it out. Yeah. You know, so it will it will happen. You're

Dr. JB Dyas  51:49  
you're a great teacher a great pedagogue that your students are lucky to have you man.

Dr. Bob Lawrence  51:54  
Thank you, JB that means the world that means the world to me, man coming from you, brother. That means the world. So thank you. I appreciate that. JB I can't man, I tell you what, I ended up spending like an hour and a half with you. And it feels like three minutes, man.

Dr. JB Dyas  52:11  
So it's always great to hang with you too. Bob and I learned so much from you as well. Well, that's

Dr. Bob Lawrence  52:17  
what that's what we That's great man. That's the attorney. That's the fraternity that we have here. You know, we learn from each other. I've I've always said that, you know, I? I loved my days at the University of North Texas, but I always look around. I always go but I gotta be honest with you. I learned more in the hallways than I did in the classroom. Yeah,

Dr. JB Dyas  52:34  
I say that too. I learned and I've had some of the greatest teachers and I've learned so much from them, but not as much as I've learned from my peers.

Dr. Bob Lawrence  52:42  
That's right. We just continued learning absorbing and sharing. It's fantastic. I love it. I feel so grateful to be part of part of the jazz world and jazz education it's it's such a blessing. So well everybody what y'all think of JP

our studio audience JB they just Just what can I say?

Dr. JB Dyas  53:10  
Standing ovation done well, right away they just left it would be that way.

Dr. Bob Lawrence  53:27  
Alright, JP, man, I cannot thank you enough brother. It's always fun to spend time with you. And you know, I said it last time. I'm gonna say it again. This time. We're gonna have you back on soon, man.